S1, E1, The one where CBD may help curb anxiety

Richard Romney (0:06)

You, me and CBD, season one, episode one, the one where CBD may help to curb your anxiety. Danell Murdock and Richard Romney are your hosts been informed about CBD is our quest. Our guests for today's show will be Doug Burgoyne, Jeff Dunn and Blake Smith. Just so you know, we're practicing social distancing as we broadcast. It's a crazy time we're living through. We have Danell who's calling in. The rest of us are six feet apart. We wish you the very best and we know it's a tough and a crazy time that we're going through and we really do wish the best for everyone.

Danell Murdock (0:57)

Yeah, that's absolutely true. We're just trying to be safe here and we hope you're being safe at home as well.

Richard Romney 1:06

So this episode is a timely one. It's one where we have the professionals. We have the experts. We have Doug, Jeff and Blake and they're going to be talking about the benefits of CBD for anxiety. And anxiety, of course, is heightened for many of us right now. And we're looking for something, anything, to calm us down and allow us to push through our days in this new reality that we're all living in.

Danell Murdock 1:34

Yeah, it's insane. If you think about it, and what I find is, my thoughts just keep going crazy and I keep worrying about what's coming and what's not coming and where it's all at. So, I can only assume that I'm normal and just like everybody else out there and just wonder.

Richard Romney 1:52

So what I'd like to do is introduce the panel. We have the pharmacists and we have the chemists. That sounds like a Netflix show or something like that. First of all, Doug Burgoyne and Jeff Dunn are both pharmacists and Blake Smith is the chemist. All three have many degrees and a lengthy list of business accomplishments and community service. And most important, they're the experts in CBD. And we know Doug and Blake have been with us before, but we welcome Jeff Dunn, as we talk about this important and timely subject. And so, Doug, Jeff and Blake, welcome. What we would want to do is open this up and be able to talk a little bit about some of the basic questions that someone might have about CBD. And as it relates to anxiety. So Doug, and Jeff, maybe we'll start with you and then as you kind of talk a little bit about that to introduce Blake.

Doug Burgoyne 3:00

Absolutely, you know, we think about the time that we're living in now. And the anxious feelings that so many of us have. I mean, if you're sitting along the Wasatch Front, right now, you're thinking about earthquakes on top of COVID-19, and everything else that's happening as a result of this terrible virus that has taken over the world. And we recognize while all of this is going on, that people start to get a little bit anxious. And we've felt that ourselves for ourselves and for our family. And it's interesting, as we consider the, the impact in society of this illness and everything else going on, that there are good ways to manage anxiety, some of them involve CBD, and some of some of those tactics don't. I think the first thing that people think about when they talk about anxiety is medications to treat anxiety, which are can be effective. And they can also leave you gorked out a little bit depending on what you're using. So we should probably talk about that.

Blake Smith 4:17

I love that term. Gorked out.

Doug Burgoyne 4:20

That's the scientific term, as you know.

Jeff Dunn 4:23

A lot of people take prescription medications for anxiety, and they they work for some people, but they don't work for a lot of people. And some of the challenges are it can take six to eight weeks to have an effect. And they have drug interactions and side effects. They're good agents, but there are some other alternatives that should be considered, and CBD is one of them.

Doug Burgoyne 4:50

Absolutely. So let's take a little bit of time to work the antidepressants. Then there are some short acting immediate drugs that work but they can sometimes leave you without memory or not in fully control of yourself. But there's also non medicine ways to treat anxiety and some of those things are talking about your feelings. I feel like we should play that song. Yeah, feeling ailing.

Blake Smith 5:16

And you have so many feelings.

Doug Burgoyne 5:19

I'm feeling it right now. But talking about things, sharing with others, even when you're not able to be in close proximity to people that are near and dear to you, being able to reach out to them and talk on the telephone or have other type of communication, a video conference or something where you can see and remain connected with friends and family. That's a big deal. So we want to remember that it's not just about only. It's not just about that when we think about good mental health and ways to manage stress and anxiety.

Jeff Dunn 5:56

And Richard, I think it's also worth pointing out that anxiety can come from a lot of different things. It's actually a disease and should be looked at that way. So it's not just caused by things like COVID, or earthquakes and other things. Even though that's very timely right now and it can exacerbate and cause us to be a little stressed out and anxious. But it's also associated with a lot of other diseases. I happen to know two people, one that has ADHD and the other one that's autistic, and they have a lot of anxiety that come with those diseases. And they're actually both using CBD and it really helps them control their anxiety with those and they function a lot at a lot higher level. And they don't have to worry about some of the side effects and drug interactions that come with adding in more and more prescription drugs to their regimen.

Blake Smith 5:58

That's really a good point, I think, and something to keep in mind because CBD has been around a long time and been able to be a help and a resource for people. And just lately It feels like it's becoming more and more of a conversation. Something that is out there and that can help, right?

Doug Burgoyne 7:16

Oh, absolutely. Not only is a CBD talked about often, almost every day you read something in the newspaper about CBD or medical marijuana. There are more and more stores that have CBD available, which we'll talk about. It comes down to quality, product and absorption. Things that Blake will cover, but it is everywhere. Everybody's asking questions, and there are a lot of people that are going into their physicians, or their nurse practitioner or their physician assistant and saying, hey, I've got anxiety. Tell me about CBD. And unfortunately, the medical community is still catching up with society about the same speed that the rest of us are. And while we're doing our best to educate physicians and other prescribers, there's a long way to go. So people are left to their own to understand. So we hope that this conversation with you, Richard and Danell, is helpful for folks, as they think about CBD in a treatment potentially, or at least a help for anxiety especially.

Richard Romney 8:18

So let's do this. Let's see if we can bring in Blake to the conversation, the chemist side of it, and maybe start off with some type of open generic question of, how does it work? How does CBD work? What is the mechanism?

Danell Murdock 8:41

Can you follow that with the chaser of, how long does it take to take effect? because you opened that topic early on.

Blake Smith 8:50

So first, I want to say that having stress is a body's natural response to some type of stimulus and so typically that results in some type of fight or flight response. You release histamines, and you have an immune response that often causes inflammation. You end up having all kinds of other effects. You release epinephrine and cortisol and what ends up happening is over long periods of time as that builds up, it has toxic effects. Even though it's natural for somebody to feel stressed out during these times, as Jeff said, any normal things. I mean, we all worry about jobs and money and all kinds of other things. Our children, family and friends. If you have prolonged stress events, it can be very detrimental to your health. So what CBD typically does, this is why I always wait to be asked questions because I have a tendency to go off on the side. If it goes too far, somebody stop me. But I think it's worth mentioning that you naturally have an Endocannabinoid receptor system. What that basically means is you have a natural ability to absorb cannabinoids. We have co evolved with these plants. And as a result of that, we've been exposed to them for so long your body has natural ways of integrating those molecules into your normal neurologic pathways. And so CBD has higher affinity for what's called Endocannabinoid receptors, system one.

That's synaptic uptake of neurotransmitters. And that's happening at the nerve cells. So they readily pass through the blood brain barrier. Jeff mentioned a lot earlier about drug drug interactions and some of these drugs that people take for anxiety take a long time to build up. We, as scientists, have had to manipulate and create compounds that can get their way into the blood brain barrier.

Cannabinoids have a natural tendency to be able to do that. Which makes them a more natural homeopathic type of a way to think about this. CBD typically will go in and it helps block a lot of junk signals. It's probably not the right way to say it but sounds really scientific. What was the term you used earlier? Gorked? You have a lot of gork signals going around. On average your brain has millions of not misfires, but firings, that aren't fully synapticly realized across the whole sympathetic nervous system. And so that builds up and you have all these neurotransmitters that are sitting in the synapse. CBD helps tap all of that down. It can help with overall anxiety because you're not getting a lot of mixed signals going on in the synapse. It can help block a lot of those down. And also, generally speaking, CBD is really good and effective at enhancing the effects of all kinds of other cannabinoids that are taken with it.

Which is why you've heard from me before say that I highly recommend Phyto cannabinoid rich or broad-spectrum cannabinoid use more than one cannabinoid. And the reason for that is because CBD, in conjunction with those, is very effective getting different therapeutic effects.

So CBD is really, really useful at helping just balance everything out going on in the whole body.

Doug Burgoyne 12:31

I think it's an important point where the products that folks are buying are different. And it's kind of buyer beware, isn't it? Where you could go into any type of store, who knows where, and find something. It'll say it's CBD. Number one; it needs to be verified that it's CBD. Number two; it's a broad spectrum or Phytocannabinoid-rich PCR, like you were talking about. And then to the third point, which was Danell's question, throwing in a shot of dosage, I think is how she said it, making sure that we're talking about folks that are getting enough CBD.

Jeff Dunn 13:11 And formulation.

Doug Burgoyne 13:13

Absolutely. Formulation is a big deal. If you can't absorb it, then all it does is sit in your mouth and does nothing.

Jeff Dunn 13:19

Well, the reason I bring that up is because we're talking about anxiety. But it's also used for other things. And so what product you use, whether there's topical or systemic or drops or gel caps or different things, is going to impact the efficacy of CBD.

Doug Burgoyne 13:32

That's a great  point.

Blake Smith 13:33

Yeah, absolutely. And so to Danell's second part question, you know, how long does it take? Well, typically speaking, if you're going to start a new kind of medication regimen, right? You're going to take it for multiple days before it starts showing. To do it's really whether it's efficacious at that dose level or not. And so what we do know is if you're not taking at least 25 milligrams, and you're a full adult sized individual, it's probably not an efficacious dose, it's not enough.

Doug Burgoyne 14:05

So like for some of the folks that will say, "Hey, I bought this stuff and they just told me to put three drops under my tongue and let it sit there for five minutes." You know, I kind of giggle but I can't imagine that somebody is really creating such a potent product that they're getting that many milligrams, like you just described, 25, in a few drops.

Blake Smith 14:30

Not Compliant at least. CBD products meet all the national standards for the National hemp rules. Which means it has to be below .3% THC. Almost all hemp derived products, at some point, end up having elevated amounts of THC because you are enhancing the effects of all the cannabinoids and this is a part of extraction. That's just a natural occurrence. Then it's the job, in order to be legal, to get those back into national specs for being compliant below the .3%. So to your point, Doug, what ends up happening for somebody to create something that's so potent that a single drop would do everything you need it to do? I find it highly unlikely that that drop would be compliant with the National hemp standards, because you'd have to literally have it at like 1000 milligrams per milliliter. And that's just unrealistic.

Jeff Dunn 15:30

Is it safe to say that one of the main reasons why CBD does not work for somebody is because they're probably not dosing it correctly?

Blake Smith 15:37

Absolutely. That is a solid point.

Jeff Dunn 15:39

Once you figure out the dosing and what works for you, then more than likely is going to have beneficial effect.

Blake Smith 15:45

That's right. I mean somebody my size, you can't see me but I'm not a tiny person, but when I have to take an Advil or something like that, I take three to four. Two don't do anything.

Doug Burgoyne 15:58

Everybody takes three to four Advil, right? We were farmers for a long time. Doesn't matter what it says on the back.

Blake Smith 16:04

You should always take three to four. But even a Benadryl, you know, I'll take two Benadryl because one doesn't touch my allergies or whatever that looks like. And so having said that, dosing becomes really, really important. And so this is knowing where the source of it comes from. I know a lot of people who are selling, what I always call swamp waters, this green goo that's like, oh this is all natural. The reason why it's green is because it's got really good chlorophyll in it. You can't digest chlorophyll for the record, it doesn't do anything for you. It just made it green. It probably tastes nasty. But it's also not really highly concentrated either, because at that point, you've pulled it off using some kind of solvent. And you've pulled off all the chlorophyll and all these other things in there, and you haven't enhanced the cannabinoid profile through distillation or through some other mechanism. Coming back to stress and anxiety, I mean, one thing that's really interesting is there's a minor cannabinoid known as CBN, which helps with that CBN is a degradation product of THC. It occurs over time with the introduction of energetic oxygen and heat and light will break down THC molecules into CBN. But CBN is where a lot of people have a mellowing effect. It's a direct result of CBN and not THC. CBN is not psychoactive and so you can actually derive the same product in hemp. And so having, and back to the whole synergistic effect, if you have some CBD with just even small amounts of CBN, you're going to notice a huge effect and taking down your anxiety.

Doug Burgoyne 17:47

Yeah, which takes us back to the broad spectrum Phyto cannabinoid rich products, which is all we carry, of course, but because we want to have that impact of a little bit of CBN with the CBD in order to get the best relief of anxiety.

Jeff Dunn 18:03

Buyers should be careful that what they're buying actually has these types of things in it. I've seen a lot of the products on the market, unfortunately, have zero CBD or very very low concentrations to CBD.

Blake Smith 18:15

And I have to say this because this is really important. Price is not the right indicator about what the product necessarily is. So some people just shop because they get a bargain. Hey I can get this for 10 bucks on the internet. Whoa, you're selling it for $75, $80?

That's crazy. It's all about the content.

Jeff Dunn 18:39

The milligrams the quantity.

Blake Smith 18:41

Absolutely. It's the quality of the CBD. And that doesn't mean somebody who sells it for $120 means it's a valuable product either. They're like, look, we have 5000 milligrams of CBD. If it doesn't have any other minor cannabinoids, that's also not as extremely valuable, right? And so talk to your pharmacist. Don't have a pharmacist? Talk to your doctor and then have your doctor recommended a pharmacist, right? You need to be talking to people who are qualified to really tell you what this looks like.

Danell Murdock 19:11

So I have a question. So let's say you get the right dosage, you get a quality product, you have everything in line, what can I expect when it comes to my anxiety? What can I expect to happen? And how do I know if it's working?

Blake Smith 19:28

So typically, the way that I think about this is when I first get a product, I always recommend people take it at night before they go to bed. And the reason I do that is because typically if you've been having stress and anxiety, you don't sleep very well. The first thing you're going to notice is it doesn't necessarily make you tired, but once you fall asleep, you'll sleep better. And all of a sudden you'll wake up and you'll have had a very refreshing night's sleep. And that often does wonders for your total amount of stress levels, right? If you're getting a good night's sleep that will help, CBN also helps with sleep actually. And then you take it again in the morning and what you should notice is, you shouldn't really feel anything. I mean, this is the difference between psychoactive compounds that make you feel high versus those that are either having an inhibitory or an agonist response. And so this, you won't really feel it but all sudden, where there's a slight tremor on the Wasatch Front where you were ready to, you know, basically curl up and die let the house fall in on here hiding under the table. All of a sudden, it's okay. You're not at the same level. You're thinking clearly. You're like; okay, let's make sure everyone is in the right place, get in the doorframe or whatever that is, instead of just having that moment of panic. For me personally, my job has often been very stressful. And I started thinking at one point, a couple years ago, I was having heart attacks all the time. I'd get this tightness in my chest right where my heart is. And so what I found out later from my doctor was, I was having anxiety. And since I've been taking CBD products, I don't have that response anymore. And that's really nice.

Doug Burgoyne 21:04

Yeah, I think you described it nicely. It's not that you'd notice to now that all of a sudden there's this relief feeling. Instead, it's the lack of anxiety after you've used the product a couple of times.

Jeff Dunn 21:17

Which is good. You don't want to feel weird or different.

Doug Burgoyne 21:20

Right? Exactly. Going back to gorked out, you don't want to be worse. You want to feel better. And so when someone takes a CBD product, for anxiety or for sleep, taking it in the evening, have a proper sleep pattern and good sleep hygiene, that's also non pharmaceutical and have a routine etc. We could talk about that for 10 more minutes, but we want and them being able to deal with issues. So I think you're right. CBD gives folks the ability to handle the stress and to be able to deal with it pretty quickly. It's the same day next day kind of thing. And it has real impact. And then they realize when they miss it more than when they've taken it. So if they miss a dose or two, they're like, oh man, I just don't feel right. Then they'll think, Oh, I've forgotten my CBD the last couple of days. Take it and they're feeling fine again. It's pretty amazing.

Jeff Dunn 22:16

And if it's not working like that, talk to us about dosing and other things.

Doug Burgoyne 22:19 Absolutely.

Richard Romney 22:21

You know, there's a lot of great information that has been passed along here. And I would think that this is the type of a of a podcast that you might want to go back and maybe write some notes about. Or listen to it a couple of times just to make sure that you've picked up on some of those key words. But for right now, I think it's important that if you are looking for or have a need for a good quality product of CBD, that Farmer and Chemist can do that. And during these times, online shopping will work for you. You can go there; you can contact the store by calling the store We can reach out to a pharmacist if that's necessary. But there are solutions and good ones. Right Danell?

Danell Murdock 23:08

It sure sounds like it. I mean, it's pretty exciting all of the conversation here today and it gives me a lot of hope for feeling a lot better.